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Post by Cobramax Mechanique on May 28, 2006 8:33:21 GMT -5
This question came up in the last general meeting and was decided to pass it to the forums for discussion: here are the notes from that meeting:
You: if a member makes something that is the same as an item already in a vendor box for sale, or very close to it
You: and that member wants to give it out for free
You: should that be permitted??
You: think this over carefully
LKG01A Duke: good question...
You: all the implications
You: not just personal implications
Tee Cramer: that could be clost to a form of patient infringement
Tokra Coleman: umm do you mean one i 'm give out almost 500 texture from star trek stuff?
Katrina Bixby: hand up
You: yes, Fadm Kat?
Katrina Bixby: this has occured, one member made a gesture its for sale here in the station
That Mann raises a hand
Large Flagstaff shouts: does anyone have a jetpack I can have a copy of that lets me go higher then the clouds?
Katrina Bixby: another member now has one and wants to give it away
Studlee Brown: hand up
You: ok, That?
That Mann: I think if it were allowed, sir, it would decrease the profitibility for vendors,and thus would make it harder to keep and attract vendors.
Hellfighter Solvang is online
You: correct
Tee Cramer: very true
LKG01A Duke: i agree with that
You: yes, studlee?
Studlee Brown: i have a comment
You: go ahead
Studlee Brown: it someone does not have the money how do you see it that way because isnt SF supposed to help everyone
You: well, there are certain realities that have to be considered
You: let me explain
You: the vendor area helps support the sim
You: and helps the vendors
You: and there are members who are vendors
You: so, it is beneficial to all to support it
You: it gives us this nice sim
You: just as information:
Studlee Brown: point taken sir thank you
You: the vendor boxes are free rent
You: there is a small 10% commission for the sales
Melchoir Tokhes has stuff to say but is dying to Carlin'
You: that goes toward the sim payment
Kitsami Berger: sir i have a question
You: ok, Kitsami?
Kitsami Berger: the 7:30 is that am or pm?
LKG01A Duke: PM
You: ok, any other questions on this item?
Kitsami Berger: thanks
Micah Desmoulins raises his hand.
You: ok, Micah?
Micah Desmoulins: Just a quick comment, sir.
Katrina Bixby: hand up
Micah Desmoulins: While I understand that the vendors can be not only a source of income for the vendor owners, but the sim as well, if someone created a similar product of their own from scratch and wanted to sell it for nothing, by all rights, they should be able to.
Micah Desmoulins: It might not be in good taste, but we can't exactly tell them they can't do it, could we?
You: well, we can agree to behave in a certain way, can we not?
Studlee Brown: hand up
Katrina Bixby: /I'd like to take a vote sir- the proposal is
Micah Desmoulins: True, but what I mean is that we can't tell the freebie vendor that they can't pitch their merchandise because others are trying to sell the same thing for actual cost.
Melchoir Tokhes raises a fat paw.
You: well, what about what was said before about how this helps maintain the sim??
That Mann raises a hand
You: Chair acknowledges Fadm Kats recommendation
Katrina Bixby: /the proposal is the following: i submit that items that are for sale inthe vendor area not be closley copied and passed around for free.
Kaziah Taggart: sounds fair for the merchants.
LKG01A Duke: i agree
Zuffy Frua: what if they sell it for $1?
Melchoir Tokhes: L$1 == free
Kaziah Taggart: then it is sold for 1 linden
You: we have an issue on the table than, one minute for comments
Wedderlie Eldrich: or by donation?
Studlee Brown: hand up
You: minium price on anything is 10 linden btw
Katrina Bixby: /id like to revise the proposal
You: go ahead Fadm Kat
Cedric Aderdeen is offline
You: comments while Fadm kat revises the proposal
That Mann still has his hand up...
Studlee Brown: hand up
LKG01A Duke: no comments
You: yes, Studlee?
Studlee Brown: cant vendors have a patent or something
Studlee Brown: or script rights
You: interesting question
Tee Cramer: but if you change it ain any amall way then it is diff and that does not apply
Cinfull Vixen: that wont stop me from making it if i already know how to script
You: go ahead, That
You: next question
Tee Cramer: HAnd up
That Mann: the original item that got this ball rolling was intended for free distrubution to the whole fleet, perhapse in the new member kit.
That Mann: it was discovered after creation that a vendor already had one for sale.
Large Flagstaff shouts: Does anyone have a jet pack I could have that will let me fly above the clouds manually?
That Mann: What if those who don't care about the money can use special vendors that distribute them with 100% of the price going to the Galaxy?
Micah Desmoulins: That is an interesting idea.
You: well, there still is the matter of that item is for sale, and the vendor would suffer
LKG01A Duke: yeah...
Wedderlie Eldrich: hmmmm
Tee Cramer: As a member of Star Fleet if i make something better, phaser or shield the i should turn it over to my lead LT. Duke for him to pass up the Chain of Cmmd
Melchoir Tokhes has a fat paw up.
Tee Cramer: let the Admiralty decide
You: yes, Tee?
You: ok, Fadm has revised the proposal
Katrina Bixby: i submit that items that are for sale inthe vendor area not be closley copied and passed around for free/minium price on anything is 10 linden.
You: now, that would be if a vendor does not already have that item...
WolfDemon Mechanique is online
You: ok, do we want to continue this discussion onthe forums or take a vote on it now??
That Mann supports the proposal for now, but wishes to have time to ponder the matter more deeply, examine alternatives.
Studlee Brown: hand up
You: yes, Studlee?
Wedderlie Eldrich: perhaps a forum discussion?
Studlee Brown: what about clothing now everyone knows that they are a ton of ST uniforms and phasers they all can look different but phasers all do the same thing
That Mann nods in agreement
You: ok, all i favor of moving the question to the forums, say YES
Kaziah Taggart: YES
Studlee Brown: Yes
That Mann: Yes
LKG01A Duke: YES
Wedderlie Eldrich: YES
Tee Cramer: yes
Ariel Miranda: Yes
Micah Desmoulins: Yes
Melchoir Tokhes: YES
Angelica Nephilim: YES
Dap Birdbrain: yes
Jonathan Heaney: Yes
Cinfull Vixen: yes
Heidi Stiglitz: Yes
Patchwork Holt: Yes
WhiteFlash Tiger: yes
Koro Kiama: yes
Kitsami Berger: yes
Melchoir Tokhes: Well that'll about do it
You: OK
Tokra Coleman: abstain
That Mann raises his hand again, re: forums
Tee Cramer: yep
You: to the forums it is
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vicky
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by vicky on May 30, 2006 1:54:43 GMT -5
"Katrina Bixby: this has occured, one member made a gesture its for sale here in the station
Katrina Bixby: another member now has one and wants to give it away"
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Oh wow... ok I made that gesture that is for sale in the station. If another member makes a copy of that gesture and wants to give it away for free, well there is nothing I can or would do to stop them. Although I personally find that unethical and akin to texture thieves, they have the freedom to do so of course.
However, when someone actually does purchase my product it encourages me to continue learning and making animations, specifically Star Trek themed ones. In fact I have several new trek related animations that I'm refining and hoping to put on the market soon. But, if someone is just going to copy my ideas and recreate them to give away for free or at a lower price that honestly removes any enthusiasm I had for making them in the first place, as you could probably imagine.
Animations specifically cost a lot of $L to create because unlike prims you have to pay every single time you want to check whether or not something is aligned correctly, when you make small adjustments. So believe me when I say I have not made a fortune with my star trek anims; if anything I may have broken even.
That said, at the same time I don't want to discourage anybody else from making animations. I guess I have some mixed feelings on this topic.
The gesture in question is probably the "tapping com" one, which is not a tremendously difficult one to make. However, in my situation, because I really am a starving college student who has vowed not to spend any real $ in the game and only to spend what I can earn, the profits from that com gesture help fund even more complex ones.
*sighs* but I guess if someone who was super rich and didnt have to worry about such things wanted to just pass things out for free, who am I to stop them? Just realize though, that at least in my situation, if the funds toward anim R&D dried up so would any new anims, frankly.
But I guess that doesnt matter because whoever it is that made the free ones could continue on making everything for free-- which may be better for the general population.
OK, so my final stance is yes, if someone wants to make it for free (at least with the gestures) go ahead and give them away. Realize of course that it actually is costing something, just that the cost might not be so obvious at first. That is not meant as a veiled threat, but simply as a matter of fact statement.
I had this same situation happen very recently with another market that I was working in. Because I needed $L, I ventured into making some adult animations. Specifically I made a ponygirl animation overrider, because the ponygirl fetish was utterly neglected in the animation department I figured ok, well I can probably corner this market to make some quick cash which would fund projects that I was more interested in.
Well, after I put that product on the market I get some encouraging comments. A few "thank you's" and "we hope you continue making anims for us" sort of thing. Well after word spreads around and the item becomes more popular, this dominatrix --I suppose-- IMs me out of the blue with this sort of attitude, saying that basically she is now going to create the exact same thing. LOL, ok fine then, be that way. You know I had other things planned for that market, but I scrapped them all because I just don't want to deal with the drama.
If the same thing ends up happening with Star Trek, fine. It was probably inevitable anyways, and you know I would probably just move on. It would be sad because I actually like star trek, but I also need to earn $L at the same time.
*shrugs* take it for what you will.
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vicky
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by vicky on May 30, 2006 5:12:33 GMT -5
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Post by Zania Turner on May 30, 2006 14:16:17 GMT -5
With the growing number of people in the group, the one thing that we are eventually going to come across is repetition. Some do want to learn how to build, script, animate, texture, etc, and that may lead them to making something that is similar or almost exactly the same as an item that is already being sold in a vendor.
If we tell them no, you can't do that, it could become detrimental. Rather than finding other ways to try and help improve their talents, and put it to good use for the group, there's a potential that they're going to get discouraged and give up all together.
If they do give up, that ultimately could come back to haunt us. Let's say that we remembered that they did pretty good with making something, but they haven't made anything in a while (because someone told them no, they can't duplicate something that another person has made). We go to them to ask them for help with building/scripting/texturing/animating something for the group. More than likely, they're going to turn us down because they stopped trying to learn and gave it up since they were told that they couldn't create a previous item they had been working on since someone else had created the same exact thing.
A perfect example would be the Deep Space 9 grey shoulder uniforms. Cleo Kitty was the first person who had created them, and I bought all the sets she had for sale. She had even created custom ones for me when I had requested them, and I bought all of them too.
Nicola tried to create a version of DS9 grey shoulder uniforms, which really sparked off this whole debate previously. He felt that nobody should create other DS9 uniforms, much less sell them for a cheaper price (even if they were much higher quality). I don't think that anything ever was decided from it, outside of the fact that there are some who do feel strongly on both sides of the line.
Nicola seems to have faded away and disappeared, but others have come along who have created DS9 grey shouldered uniforms, including Trimzi, Helz, etc. Helz hasn't sold his, but I had encouraged him to do so. Trimzi has a set up at the vendor.
To continue with this example, does this mean that nobody can go and buy Cleo Kitty's DS9 uniforms, even if she manages to get a vendor at Galaxy and they're cheaper than the other ones being sold? No, because those sales benefit the group.
Does this mean that Cleo Kitty could not give out her uniforms for free? That's a tough one, but I think it depends on the application. She might want to give them out to one person for free or at a discount as a way to help promote her item and generate more sales. Or, let's say that she particapates in a Star Trek RP in the group. She might want to give out a copy to those who participate, so everyone can benefit from that and use it during the RP. That might be her choice, although the distribution of any free or reduced fee-items should be done to where it's no copy (unless it's a ship that could be lost through a crash)/no modify/no transfer/no resell.
It's just another person who is making their items available to the group, which can benefit the group as we'll have more to work with and use in the long run. You can say the same thing when it comes to TOS uniforms, movie uniforms, TNG uniforms, Voyager uniforms, etc.
Something that I think could help is if we come up with a numbering system that would appear above each of the vendors, plus a shopping guide. That way, visitors to Infinity Station will not only see all of the vendors available to purchase from, and who is selling the items in those vendors, but also get an idea as to what is being sold in each one. Perhaps it could be taken a step further to include some "buyer reviews" of the items sold.
Vicky, please don't be discouraged, and I would suggest that you put all of your guestures back into the vendor. I already bought a few, but I remember you had more that I had wanted to purchase as well.
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vicky
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by vicky on May 30, 2006 16:35:50 GMT -5
Sorry for my outburst earlier. I have a hot temper as you probably have noticed and writing that at 3:30AM just heightens the grumpiness.
Zania your post has a lot of good arguments.
However I am not putting my anims back in the vendor because I can't charge $l for something when there is now a free version of it in existence.
A new member comes along and buys my anim, then a few days later discovers that they could have gotten it for free? Well they'll be upset with me and think that I've jipped them.
No. Someone out there is already recreating anims for free, so I would just suggest that everybody get those. I'm not going to stand in the way.
I have to admit though that Galaxy is a strange sim in that a lot of the members create buildings and ships for free, out of the goodness of their own heart. That's great, but a lot of times creators IM me with requests to create anims for their projects, but then don't offer to provide financial backing. Unfortunately, though I would love to create some of the things, I just don't have pockets that deep.
I think this is all just indicative of a much larger conflict between those of us who believe in the capitalistic society and communists. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but obviously there is a lot of difficulty in having them both work together.
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Post by Zania Turner on May 30, 2006 22:39:53 GMT -5
Vicky, seriously, go ahead and put your items back in. Not everyone knows where to get the free animations from (I sure don't), and I'd gladly buy I'll buy them from you because of the outstanding quality of your gestures! Heck, anyone who is familiar with your fantastic work probably will do so, in spite of the free versions!  |
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katrinabixby1
Divisions Moderators 
Success is when preparation and opportunity meet!
Posts: 184
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Post by katrinabixby1 on May 31, 2006 11:53:31 GMT -5
Excellent input regarding this issue. Please note that the conversation has come up before and here we finally are addressing it. Certainly it is to the benefit of the group that members learn to build,script, etc. In fact the academy is designed to enhance the skills of members. I like the recommendation from the meeting that there be a minimum price on items.
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Post by Ensign Fiendish Satyr on May 31, 2006 14:28:31 GMT -5
Intellectual property is a very touchy subject. I would just like to ask for a clarification:
Is the goal to prevent Galaxy vendors from giving away items like what another Galaxy vendor is selling, or is the goal to prevent individuals from giving away items out of their inventory that are like what a Galaxy vendor is selling?
I have read things in this thread that seem to point to one or the other, but the distinction is important. For one thing, setting a minimum item price would only be helpful if the problem is vendor vs vendor. For another, I would question the practicality (and morality) of trying to stop people from sharing their inventory if they choose.
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Post by Zania Turner on May 31, 2006 14:36:33 GMT -5
I just had a wild idea that could help resolve this issue!
We have a sub-division called Group Assets. Perhaps we could give that sub-division another duty in overseeing any free items that are created by others. If anyone wants to create a free item, they need to give it to the Group Asset sub-division head.
In doing so, the effort would be two-fold:
1) New items, which are not sold at vendors, would be distributed on a wide-spread basis to all group members by the sub-division members (as there are some items in the new member kits, like gestures, which were not available a year ago so older members may not have it).
2) New free items, which closely resemble or duplicate items sold at the vendors will be held for a very limited distribution (mainly for RP participants or prizes for special events), but would not be automatically given to all group members.
What do you guys think? If implemented in the right way, it could be a win-win situation for everyone, and it won't discourage anyone from making any items and expanding upon their skills.
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Post by Ensign Fiendish Satyr on May 31, 2006 15:02:52 GMT -5
I think that sounds like a fine idea. And I'm not just saying that because I got a new member kit that didn't include any gestures!  |
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Post by Cinfull Vixen on May 31, 2006 22:38:30 GMT -5
"1) New items, which are not sold at vendors, would be distributed on a wide-spread basis to all group members by the sub-division members (as there are some items in the new member kits, like gestures, which were not available a year ago so older members may not have it).
which led to Fiendish's comment on not receiving gestures in his new member kit.
There are no gestures supplied in the new member's kit, I won't attempt to explain what exactly Zania meant by the comment but anyone is free to IM me in world for a copy of the current kit that is being offered to the new members. Also in order for me to include a copy of an item to be distributed in the new member kit, I must have copy and transfer rights so that I can supply personnel officers with the item as well. This insures that all new members no matter which one of us processes them will get the same items with the same rights. I do instruct them to make each item no copy, no mod before they give out the kit. This helps limit the amount of these items in circulation for free. This has happened where I was asked why isn't the star trek keyboard included, or the tricoder, I have both but they are no copy no mod. Then I was given a keyboard with full rights and I was able to distribute it among the personnel officers for their kits and again reminding of the no copy and no mod restriction.
I think that Fiendish has a great point where I myself still have been trying to make the same distinction.
Zania's idea in combine with the patton idea i think would be great. The patton of each item being sold would be on file with the group assets dept. They would be responsible for keeping track of that so they would be a source to go to to verify that the item that you want to make or have made is not currently being sold by anyone else in the vendors.
Here are some things worth considering:
If a friend from outside of the group makes an item that is sold in the group and gives it to a member in the group with full rights what happens then. Is the member that acquired it free should come forward with that item to the group? Are they now supposed to charge a minimum to another member if they turn around and give it away for free too even though they didn't create it? What stops a member from truly sharing their inventory with a friend? I personally don't know where to get this gesture for free either but I feel it is unfair to the rest of the group that has to pay for it while others parade around with it free. It is also unfair to the person who made it in the first place who did spend the money and time to make it for us. I appreciate people that sell animations because that is a skill I would love to learn if I can even afford Poser to begin with and I can still have the animation even though I don't have the program nor the skill.
As for those that are learning to build, script and animate can make whatever item they chose but if its sold already they cannot give it away free. But how can we put a stop to that really? Maybe an incentive to the one learning to build is that they will get a special award and recognition for building a new item. Or maybe run quarterly contests for everyone to participate but of course have it divided into skill level for fairness and have them displayed and judged. The winner will get a certain amount of lindens to be used to continue the development of the object that they made. I think it would create an incentive to build a new item with the recognition that comes with it.
Just thinking about it more deeply, there has been new members that have made new items for group and maybe their names can go on a plaque on the wall so years from now new members can see that the objects they have are because of this person. I know this will bring up the point that past new members that have made new things that may have not gotten recognition for it. With that maybe a time limit of 6 mos to 1 year of how far back we would go to recognize those members. It would be nice to hear feedback on this.
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Post by Dorie Bernstein on Jun 4, 2006 1:25:31 GMT -5
I feel that paying for animations is very important. If we want to distribut something with the new member kit, why not give a bigger payment to the creator of the animation. Say, $1000, for the full rights, or something deemed fair to both parties?
I would gladly pay for more ST animations/gestures and equipment. I've been trying to build objects (can't afford Poser!), and understand the time, skill, lindens, and effort needed to make something you can be proud of.
Even paying 10 lindens for the new member kit wouldn't be burdensome, or even more for it. There is a lot included, and that money can go into supporting those who are working on animations, scripts, gestures, and objects.
I'm a starving college student, so I quickly identified with the maker of the comm gesture! (I bought one the instant I saw it was available.) I haven't a clue where to find a free one, and frankly...I wouldn't want a free one. I shy away from too many free items, and rather would pay something for higher quality.
But that's my two lindens worth!
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Post by Ensign Fiendish Satyr on Jun 5, 2006 11:12:37 GMT -5
I have been giving this a lot of thought for the past few days.
There is no question that Vicky deserves to be compensated for her hard work. Since her post declares a purely capitalistic motive in creating trek themed products, it seems that if we want to see more items from her we need to support her by buying what she makes. I bought a copy of her animation myself this weekend, but that doesn't help the next artist who finds herself in the same position.
Since there has been no answer to my previous question, I think maybe nobody is sure of the exact definition of the problem. If the problem is just one of having a vendor in the station offering an item for $0 that another vendor has for >$0, then Admiral Bixby's excellent solution wraps it up nicely. If we are dicussing disallowing individuals from giving out items in their inventory, it gets a lot more complicated. I would consider any solution that prevents a person from personally giving out copies of their inventory items a destructive solution leading to more problems than it could possibly solve (such as artists who want to make items for the free use of the community being discouraged, arguments over which of two similar items is "higher quality", accusations of violation without the possibility of being proved or disproved, lack of a method of enforcement, and many others).
Assuming we are talking about more than just the vendor prices, I propose the following solution, which was inspired by the posts of Zania, Cinfull, and Dorie:
Official Star Fleet SLQ accessories. -- Compile a list of official accessories such as Vicky's comm badge animation, Dora's vehicles, alternative uniforms, etc that are available in the station. Include that list on a note card in the cadet kit, and maybe even give those items a special prominent kiosk where recruits and visitors are sure to notice it. In this way we could encourage cadets (and visitors if there is a kiosk) to support the artists who have given us so much, without restricting the freedom of the general population to create what they want and give it away if they choose.
This would encourage the flow of Lindens to the artists, not to mention to Galaxy, as well as being a useful resource to cadets... all without restricting freedom or creativity.
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Post by Dora Resistance on Jun 5, 2006 19:17:24 GMT -5
I think I should probably coment on this issue, as my income is actually creeping into the black because of my sales in SL.
But I won't.
I make things here. It takes a lot of time and effort to make what I make... if someone duplicates my work then gives it away for free?
Good luck with that.
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Post by Zania Turner on Jun 5, 2006 21:38:04 GMT -5
Dora, that's why I suggested the idea of the Group Asset sub-division overseeing all free items created for the group. If someone creates an item, they have to submit it to that division, which would then oversee distribution of free items to all members.
BUT, if an item closely resembles something for sale at a vendor, then it doesn't go out on a wide-spread basis. It's held for limited release (i.e. prizes for social events, like dances). In doing so, the person who created the free item won't be discouraged and told that they can't do something, and the individual who has something to sell at a vendor in Galaxy won't lose their business.
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